7 July, 2022

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ITJP Enraged By President Sirisena’s Insults To UN Inquiry

“It is disappointing to see the new President defame all those who allege there are still ongoing violations as linked to the LTTE”, this is the sort of rhetoric and denial we’d hoped would change.” says the Executive Director of the International Truth and Justice Project (ITJP), Yasmin Sooka.

Yasmin Sooka - Executive Director - International Truth & Justice Project - Sri Lanka

Yasmin Sooka – Executive Director – International Truth & Justice Project – Sri Lanka

Issuing a statment regarding President Maithripala Sirisena’s remarks in recent BBC interview the ITJP said;“The High Commissioner is right: international involvement is essential for victims and witnesses to have trust in the justice process because Sri Lanka has such a long history of failed domestic processes.”

We publish below the statement in full;

The International Truth and Justice Project is deeply concerned that Sri Lankan President Maithripala Sirisena appears to be rolling back on his commitment in Geneva to include international involvement in a future judicial mechanism. In an interview with the BBC yesterday, the President reportedly stated, “I will never agree to international involvement in this matter”.

This flies in the face of the recommendation of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights that Sri Lankan establish “an ad hoc hybrid special court, integrating international judges, prosecutors, lawyers and investigators”. High Commissioner Zeid Ra’ad Al Hussein, who is due to visit Sri Lanka shortly, has been very clear about the “total failure of domestic mechanisms to conduct credible investigations” in Sri Lanka3.

“The High Commissioner is right: international involvement is essential for victims and witnesses to have trust in the justice process because Sri Lanka has such a long history of failed domestic processes,” said ITJP Executive Director Yasmin Sooka.

ITJP is also shocked that the Sri Lankan President should question that crimes took place after the detailed and graphic revelations of the year-long OHCHR Investigation, as well as reports by many other credible international and Sri Lankan organisations. We note the BBC reported that President Sirisena said, “it was important to determine whether such crimes actually took place”.

“This is an insult to the thousands of victims and witnesses who testified to the UN inquiry and other bodies,” said Yasmin Sooka, adding, “it’s rather late in the day to question whether crimes took place”.

President Sirisena also suggested in his BBC interview that because the UN did not specify names of alleged perpetrators, there was some doubt about the allegations.

“Just because the UN decided from the outset not to mention names of alleged perpetrators does not mean they do not have such information. It is usual for an UN inquiry not to disclose the names but to hand this over to a credible prosecutorial body when established. Quite frankly enough evidence exists already for a tribunal, if it’s run in a way that protects witnesses,” said Sooka.

President Sirisena also dismissed reports that the Sri Lankan security forces have continued to abduct, torture and sexually violate Tamil detainees during his period in office. He said such reports came from people “close to the Tamil Tigers”.

ITJP documented twenty such cases that occurred in 2015, while Freedom From Torture has an additional 7 cases that do not overlap.

“It is disappointing to see the new President defame all those who allege there are still ongoing violations as linked to the LTTE”, said Sooka, “this is the sort of rhetoric and denial we’d hoped would change.”

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Latest comments

  • 18
    6

    This is the reality !! We experience for sixty years !! Since independence !! Excepted !! No surprise !! He is the same !! Like his predecessors !! Always go back from commitment / promises !! Agreements !! National or international !! But I am sure he will deny it in English or foreign Media !!

    • 8
      4

      Yasmin Sooka – Executive Director – International Truth & Justice Project – Sri Lanka

      RE:ITJP Enraged By President Sirisena’s Insults To UN Inquiry

      Welcome to Sinhala “Buddhism” in the Land of Native Veddah Aethho.

      If you read the Mahawansa by Monk Mahanama, you will understand.

      Also read, Mahavamsa- An Insult To The Buddha!

      Caution- The following is more suitable for the broad-minded and the wise. Others are kindly advised to pass!

      Wonder if ours might have been a wiser, and a more ‘humane’ society, had our ‘ancient’ history, been based on Aesop’s Fables, instead of the Mahavamsa. For if not for the Mahavamsa, the Sinhalese may not have been endowed, with the reputation, of “Sinhalaya Modaya (The Sinhalese are Fools)”!

      In this “wonderland” called Sri Lanka, and in this day and age, one still comes across ‘academically’ educated, and supposedly intelligent ‘Buddhists’, but sadly lacking in wisdom, who reverently believe, that the Buddha walked out of his mother’s womb, and walked seven steps, while lotuses blossomed, under his feet!

      Read on…and on…

      https://www.colombotelegraph.com/index.php/mahavamsa-an-insult-to-the-buddha/

      • 0
        0

        Amarasiri:[Edited out]do you know of things called ‘similies’ in philosophy? apparently you do not because you fart too often in these internet sites.[Edited out]

        • 1
          0

          vis8

          “do you know of things called ‘similies’ in philosophy?”

          How do you anything about similies when you are as blind as a bat.

          “apparently you do not because you fart too often in these internet sites.”

          Internet doesn’t transmit smell, therefore check all around you, it could be you at the other end.

  • 12
    3

    Domestic mechanism to investigate alleged or proven violations of human rights and war crimes has not been credible because they were meant to white wash and protect the perpetrators of those crimes. The political leaders feel obliged to appease majority of ethnic majority as 99% of military are recruited from them. There is no honest optical leader in Sri Lanka as even the present president who pledged at UN HRC in September to “include international involvement in a future judicial mechanism” pretends now to have come from another planet.

    The main question is whether the victims will get justice even if the perpetrators are allow to get off the hook. More than 100,000 were killed in a matter of days with nearly 10,000 maimed and 12,000 disappeared after the end of the war. The prime minister has told the loved ones of those missing that they were dead implying the previous regime killed them by military intelligence or paramilitaries such as EPDP, Karuna and Pillaiyan factions.

    What will the co-sponsors of the latest UN HRC resolution do now? Will they re-start the resolution route or keep quiet so long as China is kept in the bay by the Sri Lankan leaders.

    • 5
      22

      “High Commissioner Zeid Ra’ad Al Hussein, who is due to visit Sri Lanka shortly, has been very clear about the “total failure of domestic mechanisms to conduct credible investigations” in Sri Lanka”.

      Well, Madam Sooka, he is not our king. May be he is your pay master, but not ours.

      If you can keep him in Genewa, though its winter there. We don’t need his kind (who are on the take from Americans and the British) here.

      Down with Al Hussein and Sookas of this world.

      • 15
        3

        Lanka lover,

        Looking for an easy way out is cowardice – it is neither bravery nor done with integrity!

        • 2
          0

          [Edited out] Kumar my darling.

          Your bullet point punchy comment is great. Unbelievable.

          I thought you are a heartless person all these while. In this, you have proved that you have a humane heart going beyond and telling the truth.

          Beyond your personal prejudice against section of Lion Kings because they too have inherited the same clan badge, you are a good thinker but behave utterly idiotic most of the times.

          My new Mahinda Chinthanaya will shape change things better for you and will oxygenate you to think, work, respond, respect and engage wisely.

          Let me give the core tip of the new Mahinda Chinthana.

          It is based on the simple concept of espousing a new culture of promoting and working on the theme of ‘WE’ as people and not saying ‘I’ which is a selfish characterisation of politics that has ruined Sri Lanka.

          Just imagine you and me together as ‘WE’ can do wonders under the new Mahinda Chinthanaya.

          [Edited out]

  • 14
    3

    You can be enraged only if you believed that the Sri Lankan govt does what it promises. This is not the first time, even MR publicly promised to Ban Ki Moon.
    UNHRC cannot blame anyone but itself. A country where it cannot find justice for politicians, media personnel, sportsmen murdered in cold blood, cannot even do a proper investigation of billions stolen: expecting to locally find justice for war crimes internally is a joke.
    Human rights and crimes against humanity are not just local issues they are international issues.

    • 3
      2

      Burt
      how many times I have to educate you on the UNHRC, Zeid, Sooka etc.?
      These people have no power for anything. Everything happens according to what the US wants. MS and Sri Lanka are with the US now. Has anything happened after the new gov? You separatist better write against the US not MS, Ranil or anybody else.

      • 2
        1

        Nuisance the Stupid I

        “how many times I have to educate you on the UNHRC, Zeid, Sooka etc.?”

        It is indeed a reasonable question.

        However, who is going to educate you before you educate others?

        What is the difference between you and a knife?

        “You separatist better write against the US not MS, Ranil or anybody else”

        You should ask the smart ass patriot to write to the US, Cheer leader smart ass patriot Dayan could do it for you.

  • 19
    0

    Just as we (the voters) are finding out that Sirisena’s ‘words’, or promises, mean nothing, soon the entire world will know what a liar he is.

  • 7
    17

    About time Ms Sooka accept life goes on in Sri Lanka despite 30 years of Tamil Terrorism (that ended 7 years ago). The nation had to end the barbarism unleashed by Tamils and it did just that in 2009. If Ms Sooka is interested in human rights let her get on with it and investigate what her paymasters have unleashed in Iraq, Afghanistan and in Syria killing millions to ‘safeguard’ their geopolitical interests. Please let us know of the progress you make, if any, Ms Sooka! As for failed investigations, there is no mention of Chillcot Commission’s findings.

    • 4
      1

      lal looooooo

      “About time Ms Sooka accept life goes on in Sri Lanka despite 30 years of Tamil Terrorism (that ended 7 years ago).”

      Not for many who had lost their kith and kin.

      “The nation had to end the barbarism unleashed by Tamils and it did just that in 2009.”

      Barbarism of LTTE was met with Barbarism of the state. LTTE dead and gone. So were the many innocent people. Their relatives want closure.

      The State is in perpetual existence. Those who ordered the massacre and those who carried out the butchery are still alive and serving in the armed forces.

      It is for you to unearth truth.

  • 11
    1

    Tamil militancy a.k.a ‘terrorism’ – provoked by occasional killings in cold blood of batches of tamils since 1951 – ended 7 years ago, but has been replaced by undeclared ‘state terrorism’ in the north and east.
    Tamils can never expect justice from Sinhala majority governments with regard to all killings since independence, as all are anxious to safeguard the ‘heros’ from international assisted inquiry.
    Even now, tamils are being arrested at the airport on return from foreign employment, labelled as LTTErs.
    The obnoxious PTA likes of which does not exist in any other country casts a shadow over tamils, while its former enforcer is safeguarded by the regime from all inquiries, even into financial improprieties, and those arrested earlier, languish in prison for up to 15 years.

    Sirisena and Rajapakse are the only leaders who went back on their promises to the UNHRC. Both would not have been elected but for the votes of tamils who trusted them.

  • 9
    0

    These concerns were strongly expressed at the informals in Geneva and to members of the UN HR Council by the TGTE, even after the resolution was watered down to suit Sri Lanka to manupilate. The Tamils have no confidence, based on the 66 year history of successive regimes, that they will ever do the right thing.

    TGTE explained that the Tamil victims were living in hope, demanding accountability and justice and that this Council will take immediate action and deliver with an implementation plan.

    The GoSL is again taking the IC for a ride, to delay and deviate from the resolution of accountability to a time wasting exercise, to make believe, with a constitutional review to further short change the Tamils.

    The trust of the Co-Sponsors on Sri Lanka has been betrayed and dashed, and is now squarely on the UN HR Council and the High Commissioner to refer SL to the ICC.

    Accountability and Remedial Justice First.

    Manicka Vasagar

  • 15
    1

    President Sirisena’s refusal to accept international involvement is true to form. It is custom and practice for the majority of our politicians – all the way up to the highest -, mindful of the watching Sinhala-Buddhist voter, to instinctively ‘defend the honour’ of the country.

    The international community have grappled with this problem for long enough to be able to learn what to accept. From vacillation all the way down to downright denial. What more can you expect? The word of the Sri Lankan government has become synonymous with unreliability. Sad, but not without some truth. After all, there is an electoral majority watching. An electoral majority with a strong self belief that the whole world (except China, of course) is against them. One false move and it will be curtains.

    The Sri Lankan government has a track record of calling for international ‘help and support’ when the ‘democratically elected government has its back to the wall, and is threatened. 1971. 1987-89. At various times when the Tiger stalked the land. The government will cry its eyes out in international parlours “aiyoo, see, our democracy is under threat, kindly please help us”.

    Then the gloves come off, and the dogs are let out. The end game is always dirty.

    Invariably, when the dirty work is done, there will be, there IS always, excess. Investigation? Not on your Nellie. When last did the Government find its own culpable and answerable? Not after 1971. Not after 1977. Not after 1983. Certainly not after the disgraceful massacre at Bindunuwewa. Sinhalese politicians saw the Tamil uprising as a win-win situation politically. One to be managed for their benefit.

    Whenever will we Sri Lankans be able to regain our integrity and stand tall on this planet?

    Once again, the worm squirms.

    • 3
      1

      This pervert (koha who makes crow noises) thinks that “Sri Lankans will be able to regain our integrity and stand tall on this planet” by allowing American and other hymie judges to inquire in to our affairs!

      Get a backbone crow, become a vertebrate.

      Where are those who punished Ekneligoda? Your job is not over.

  • 9
    1

    Sirisena is a liar. He has learnt well as abiththaya under Mara. Anyone who has doubts please get your brains tested.

  • 7
    0

    The offenders involved in Crimes are already aware that their names are
    on the UN List and may have prepared their version of events – let this
    come out. Even MS may have been guided with his version by now by his
    local legal team. The promises held out by Mangala at UN, thinking
    that by supporting the Resolution, MS-RW Govt. can overcome every issue in their favour, would be thus foolish at present times.

  • 10
    1

    When the GoSL ‘jointly’ supported the UNHRC resolution, they gave a commitment to include international judges and observers. Going back on that commitment, by both the President and the PM, is unacceptable. Now Samaraweera will come out with more excuses. This was predictable. The US, EU and other countries at the UNHRC will all become jokers if they don’t hold the current regime accountable.

    • 7
      2

      Within the last two weeks, Mr. Jeyakumar Thangavelu, a retired senior DIG in the SL police service, published an article in Colombo Telegraph, where he makes clear how the witness protection program of a Presidential commission was thwarted by a ‘top Defense Ministry official,’ who ordered Mr. Thangavelu exterminated and sent thugs to do reconnaissance near his home.

      If this was the predicament of a senior police officer who played by the rules and upheld even the draconian laws of the GoSL, including the PTA, and fought the LTTE on behalf of the GoSL, it is clear that any local investigation will be a non-starter, thwarted by the President, who was Deputy Defense Minister during the war, and the Prime Minister themselves.

      International investigation remains a must.

  • 3
    11

    I think Yasmin Sooka gives give the Opinion of Vatican or the Christian view funded by UN.

  • 3
    1

    Wildlife Sanctuary Land, Lankawe has seen two accused war criminals seated on the Sanctuary’s top most job, the Executive President, by the Sinhala Buddhist and maneuvered by Sinhala Intellectuals.

    The Old King and the New King both were accused as war criminals in the erased list which was attached to draft report produced by OISL. So, there is no reason for why the current New King should be supporting the fair inquiry any more than the Old King.

    We have seen, from the election of Jan.th 2015, New Royal government showing to IC the UNHRC’s inquiry and watering out the solution through a constitutional change, and showing constitutional change to IC and watering out the UNHRC resolution were when it was taking place. By this technique of inserting double meaning wording “foreign and Common wealth Judges” Lankawe has established that pundits at UNHRC does not have capacity to draft a resolution without ambiguity.
    The New King has said the OSIL has accused the army in general without producing names. That is why they cannot start an internal inquiry into any person, he said to BBC. These are men and women have forced the UNHRC to remove their 47 names from the OISL report. That is another “comedy Thamai”.

  • 6
    18

    WHO THE HELL IS THIS SHOOKA WOMAN. WHERE DID SHE COME FROM?
    WHAT THE DEVIL HAS SHE GOT TO DO WITH SRI LANKAN AFFAIRS.
    OH YES SHE IS PART OF THE USELESS NATIONS GRAVY TRAIN.

    • 7
      2

      emerald, go and put your head back in where it was , you know where!

      • 5
        1

        jeyam

        “emerald, go and put your head back in where it was , you know where!”

        When did he move it from where it was to where it is now?

  • 8
    1

    iemerald,

    Born of ignorance – aren’t you? Utter ignorance!

  • 9
    0

    Here we go again : Re-borne of Mahinda Rajapaksha in the name of Maithiribala Sirisena. …….

    Sri Lankan Government previously backed a UN resolution calling for a war crimes court supported by foreign judges but on Thursday the president said: “I will never agree to international involvement in this matter.”

    President Sirisena said that while the UN report released in September 2015 had pointed to army involvement in war crimes, the report had failed to mention names. He said it was important to determine whether such crimes actually took place.

    The president also dismissed reports from the advocacy group Freedom from Torture that people in detention were still being tortured.

    I hope UN, USA and Western countries understand the lies the Sri Lankan presidents make and wake up to the fact that Sri Lanka is not going to address the fundamental Tamil’s issues and solve them. They are utter lairs and must be punished in the International Criminal Court.

  • 6
    0

    I have mentioned this during the previous regime too. If you have nothing to hide, you would open the doors wide for anyone who questions, to come in and investigate.

    There are indications that the present President, is covering up for the past regime, and that he is also following a similar path.

    Meanwhile Ranil is missing in action.

    We were promised many things before the elections, including an open and honest government.

    We are still waiting for that.

  • 10
    2

    There has to be an international component in the UHCHR mandated process. The government of Sri Lanka cannot be the accused, policeman, prosecutor, judge and jailor. As both the armed forces of the government of Sri Lanks and the LTTE stand accused of war crimes, third party participation is a necessity.

    Not withstanding Sirisena’s contradictory words and actions in order to placate the MR camp, what the government agreed to at the last UNHCR sessions should not be reneged. It cannot a repeat of the ‘ Portugusi Karaya Colomba Giya’ story of old.

    Dr.Rajasingham Narendran

    • 0
      9

      Doctor,
      Suddenly you are getting brave. Who is going to protect you and your palace in Navatkuli? Watch out!

      • 5
        1

        Was I ever a coward, to become brave now? Are you planing something sinister? I am ready to die any time, but will not go out without a good fight whether in your imagined palace at Navatkuli or elsewhere. If it is concern for my safety that makes you say, what you have, I can only say, do not wirry.’

        Dr.RN

    • 4
      3

      Rajasingham,

      Just about a year and a half ago, when bedding with MR regime, you castigated the Diaspora for seeking international intervention. And now you are the champion for “keeping up with promises” to UNHCR?

      You are nothing but a shameless “vassi pathata hoi!” activist.

  • 2
    0

    If Tamils have to face internal investigation, it is better off not to attend and get the pre-decided results. Lost many things and add one more to it – killed people will never come back – leave the justice to the mighty God and the nature to punish. When the nature punish, not only the ones committed the crime but also who supported or defended will be punished – Think and act. World need people to do all type of jobs, if every one wanted to manage, who will do the manual job, so we modias more appropriate to do dirty jobs and leave posh jobs to rich countries – If we ever wanted to be modias, good for the world.

    • 0
      0

      Senthil:

      Funny isn’t? If the god you are talking about allows someone to be killed or murdered “unlawfully” how on earth you expect that god to be on the side of “justice” to punish the perpetrator. It looks like that god is actually the devil being re-clothed by such perpetrators to mask their activities. If history and the past had taught us one thing, it is how cunningly god sides with evil to create the impression all this talk of the “triumph of good over evil”.

      May be the closest to god is money and it is not without reason that the saying goes, “money is the root of all evil”. I have heard many say that this god will punish perpetrators and once they die and face the judgment day, as if all these jokers are witnesses to such dispensation. As far as I can see, just like head and tail are obverse and reverse of the same coin, god is as evil as darkness surrounding life. People are not short of religiosity but try talking to the person next to you that anything he/she may do will be subject to god’s laws. Either he/she will think you are a lunatic and will carry on with his business as usual, as if it means nothing and may be he his right. Just throw a few pennies and gods scramble to lay their hands on them.

      God is nothing but pure evil.

  • 4
    0

    Both President Sirisena and Prime Minister Wickaramasinghe are worse than the deposed Rajapakse regime. Their actions suggests that they are people with no integrity but willing to betray not just of the electorate but the international community as well..

    On 1st Oct 2015, the UN System (Human Rights Counsel) passed a Special Resolution (S/HRC/RES/30/1). It was passed with the concurrence of the Sirisena regime, accepting that the people of Sri Lanka has no trust and confidence in the Justice system in this country to inquire into allegations of human rights violations. The said resolution was passed without a vote agreeing to set up an international tribunal to inquire into alleged war crimes and human right violations.

    Then, at an interview given to BBC on 21st Jan 2016, President Sirisena said that he would not allow setting up of any international tribunal to inquire into human rights and war crime allegations and that he said that he has full confidence in the domestic mechanism, which has been already condemned by the right activists and the international community.

    No responsible government behaves in this manner, unless persons with unsound mind run the government. It seems that they consider what they promised to the international community is somewhat similar to the pledges that they normally made to the electorate, which they absolutely ignore thereafter.

  • 6
    0

    What a shame that those who were brought to trial at Nuremberg were not made judges instead so that they could determine whether or not they were war criminals.

    All those agreeing with that sentiment, say “Aye” loudly and clearly while accusing everyone else of “being in the pay” of …….. (take your pick or simply pick your nose while you’re waiting for justice in Sri Lanka!)

  • 2
    0

    This is nothing new for Tamils here….60 years experience

    Now these guys are playing with international countries….

    First they have begged for local inquiry …..with foreign judges

    Then beg not to release the names of war criminals and rapists in the UN report…

    Then said they will not punished the barbaric security forces…

    Now throw cow dung at the face of U.N….

    All script…direction by poverty India because poverty India is alarmed if there is an inquiry poverty India `s involvement in the massacre will be exposed….

    Local inquiry is like thief is judging about robbery …

    Cheers

  • 1
    0

    We waited so long with high hopes to see an honest and just Presiden, only to find another MR defender.

  • 0
    0

    Minister Wijedasa Rajapaksa has said Old King is not a criminal. What is his argument is he is only an accused. One has to have a strong will power to talk like; after all he refused to resign with Tilak Marapana on the last episode.

    This guy saved the Bother Prince’s private defense company, Avante Garde, from law suit of its illegal tradings. The Yahapalanaya government took the business away, but did not punish the operators. You know what I mean. This is a government which is against nationalisation and would like to privatise the corporations. What happened was a simple legitimising the hand change of the company from Old Royal’s private property to New Royal’s private property. Even, Originally, the company was formed as a government corporation too.

    Is there somebody really looking for justice from these crooks. May I know who its? Just interest how their names sounds like!

  • 0
    1

    Yasmin Sooka being disappointed with our politicians? Hmmm, I am amused that she expected our politicians to be something else. We Sri Lankans have endured endemic disappointment with our politicians. Join the club Yasmin Sooka. We Sri Lankan do not trust our politicians – ever. Yes we do get sucked in time and again by their smooth talk all the time. But trust – never.

  • 1
    0

    There exists the International community and incomes China in the
    political scene in SL. The honeymoon period is nearing the end and
    its UN Vs SL Govt.in the next few weeks and months. UN high comm.for Human rights will regret his decision to delay the release of the report by six months, on the recommendation of SL. Govt., which was
    to be released in Mar/2015 with the names of the perpetrators of war crimes.

    Sure,there will be a twist to the story after the visit of the UN
    High.Comm. for Human rights to Sri Lanka, next week.

  • 0
    0

    The New King comedian blamed those who obstructed the implementation of the Solomon West Ridgeway’s Pact with SJV. Basically he meant the Kandy Dalada Maligawa pilgrimage of the Buddhist extremist, Richard Junius, the UNP thug. Now the son of British Mercenary Albert’s son is blocking the International Inquiry. These comedian always talk very conveniently. Unless these war criminals are put in prison there is no way to make them talk any truth.

  • 0
    0

    The West installed Yahpalana Govt in Moldovia only jailed its ex President.And the masses are up in arms and it is going to be the next Ukraine..

    Just imagine our Yahapalana President allowing the White Judges, appointed at the behest of Surendran’s Diaspora, jailing our War Heroes and locking up the Samnera’s with UNP Wije’s Monk Bashing Bill.

    Isn’t poor Sira copping enough shit from the Yahapalana suckers for taking Daham to the UN ?..

    Does he need Sinha Le to pile up on him too?.

    BTW , how come the Yahapalana PM Batalanda Ranil never talks about White Judges and Afrikaanar Hybrid Courts?.

    Where is Batalanda’s architect the Southern boy Mangalan nowadays, who drafted this new Legal constitution in London and in Singapore?..

    No Journos ask the tough questions from them.. Not even the ones from the LTTE desk at Cameron’s BBC..

  • 0
    1

    Check the money behind allegation is clean. Did they fund killing by LTTE. They should be punished first. If videos were forged they should get the maximum penalty.

  • 0
    1

    LTTE coolies are barking again :D
    At least We Thamizh are getting good value for money from Sooka unlike the other useful idiots like Boyle and Robertson who seem to have faded away into oblivion along with their fees :D

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